Full transcription:
Tracy: Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Elle. It's so amazing to have you. And if you wouldn't mind starting off by giving people a little bit of a sense of who you are and what you've been up to the past couple of years.
Elle: Yes, of course. Hi. It's awesome to be here and it's awesome to be talking with you and Chris. Thank you so much for having me.
Tracy: Yeah. We're especially excited to have you as one of our first interviews because we both feel like you epitomize what it means to live a well-designed life. It seems like you've designed the exact life that you want to have for yourself. And we wanted our audience to hear that experience firsthand from you,
Elle: Yes, let's, let's definitely talk about that today.
Tracy: Cool. Okay, well, why don't we just start. Would you mind giving us a general overview of yourself and what you've been up to the past couple of years?
Elle: Sure. Well, I originally met Tracy and Chris, at IDEO and I guess that was a number of years ago. And I really, really got off on a great, I guess, an early crossroads in my life, although I didn't see it at such time when I made the decision to go into art school and to go into a creative practice at IDEO as a designer. And then after IDEO, to jump into startups, I worked with kind of building apps and websites. Some of them you might use on your phone like mailbox, we wanted to revolutionize the way that people experienced email on their mobile phone and the original Uber app that was a small team of us in San Francisco, for the iPhone. Of course, now it's across all kinds of platforms and Medium, I think it's the most gorgeous place to write on the web. And it's where I eventually when I decided to step away from technology, to tackle my next I guess, chapter of what was next in my journey, decided to write a post on Medium, which has gotten me into the journey that I'm in now, which maybe we'll talk in more detail about a little later. But at a high level, all of that happened because of a crossroads very early in my life, which was when I, unfortunately, tried to apply to nine law schools. This was like at the end of college, and I come from a long line of lawyers and so the decision to apply to law school just sort of felt obvious like I should totally go to law school, particularly because I was around people who are really good at it. And they were really, really passionate about law. And so I figured that I should do that too. And as the universe would have it, I got rejected from every single school I applied to maybe that's why I don't think of it as a crossroads because it wasn't really a choice. But the universe just said, like, No, we just aren't going to do that.
Tracy: I know. But I find it hard to believe that knowing you like that you wouldn't get into law school.
Elle: Oh, no, not one. Every single letter open with the four words is the same. We regret to inform like, the fifth word doesn't even matter. Like if you get we regret to inform just set that set the envelope down and step away.
Tracy: Yeah, you can assume that the next word is you.
Elle: Yes, yeah, exactly. So after, after not going to law school. It's just sort of been a creative journey since then.
Tracy: Yeah. And then an amazing one, actually, and I've had the pleasure of knowing you. Yeah, since you were working at IDEO and now you've gone on to this completely new and more expansive, creative path, which I've just found so inspiring. And yeah, why don't we talk a little bit about what you're doing now, because I know that you have a book coming out soon and I'm so excited, I can't wait to read it.
Elle: I do have a book coming out and I'm just thrilled. I feel like people have so many different experiences around getting their work out there and I've never written a book before. It's my first book and the the the journey to this point has been tremendous. I just, I have loved the people that I have been working alongside the team just continues to get more and more amazing. It's been it's just been so exciting. So the book comes out April 8, so we're like, right on the cusp of the book coming out. It's called The Crossroads of Should and Must. And the best way I can describe it is it's like a book that is half words and half art. I literally painted most of the pages actually, almost every page that has art on it. It's full color, it's hardcover, it's like a total dream come true to hold an object that feels so, so integrated with like my painting practice and art practice, it just feels like an extension of my studio. And so now we're just gearing up for it for all things book.
Tracy: That's amazing. And it is, it's like a true reflection of who you are. If you like, you know, it's great that you mentioned you have a team sort of helping you and has helped you along the way. But I do feel like, it must be so incredibly valuable to have something that is an expression of your voice, and your vision and your artistry.
Elle: Absolutely, and I think I received a lot of great advice from other folks who have been on this road before. And the advice that I would share for anybody who has an idea that they want to put out in the world is noodle on the idea for as long as you can on your own. Maybe at first, it's just with yourself that you're like sitting with this like early nascent idea. And obviously, Tracy, this is so much like design thinking at IDEO, right? Like, we have these ideas that come up over and over and over again, and they quickly get jotted down on post-it notes. In one post-it note might continue to linger a little bit longer, while the other ones start to fall away. And as you kind of look at that one idea, you kind of begin turning it around in your head. The next step in that process is in sharing it with someone who you really trust. This is someone who understands your creative process. This is somebody who understands your worldview, the type of things that you want to put out into the world. And it doesn't have to be about design, it can be about life, right? And you over a coffee or over a pizza, you can share this idea with this person and say like, I would love some help, I would love some feedback. And at that moment, it's like your dear friend has ultimate veto power, they can just say, really, really don't waste your time. Like, let's stay focused on the course. Or they can say actually, I think there's something here, what have you thought about this? Have you thought about that, and those partnerships are, wow, they are so so important to process because after that, you create a model or you create something a framework for me, it was a medium post, where I kind of started working out my ideas, and then you share it with people and you get it out there? And then people begin kind of navigating around this model or this framework, you begin showing other people your point of view. And then finally, when you want to share it with even more people, you can say, this is actually really what I think it needs to be, I think it needs to be a book that feels like an art object, I think it needs to be full color. And I think it needs to be really painted. And I think it needs to be really fast. Somebody needs to be able to read it in an hour. And it needs to be for like younger people, older people, men, women. And then when you have that, and you have the model to show it, people can say, Ah, I see where that could go, let's join forces and all bring this thing to life. And that's when the magic happens.
Tracy: Yeah, that's amazing. I wonder, could you sort of tell people about how you made those decisions? What was the process to decide like, it should be painted? It should be a fast read, it should be for young and old?
Elle: That's a great question. I mean, the first thing I think of is just that's how I saw it. Um, I think one of the things that I knew really early on is that information has to be digestible. And unfortunately, our culture is such a culture of busy-ness. We are addicted to being busy and the reason that we don't make time for so many of the things that feel really important in our life is because we're too busy. And so I knew that this book, if it was dense, little tiny type that ran on for thousands of pages, would just not resonate with where people are in their lives. Information is being consumed, you know, more and more quickly, that the medium posts that I put up was a 20-minute read. And I remember thinking nobody's going to read it. It's 20 minutes long. You know, yes, that's a wild thought. But I wanted somebody to be able to sit down with the book and on one plane flight, or on one lunch break, I wanted them to be able to go from cover to cover and I knew that was just how it had to be in order to be digested.
Tracy: I love it. But even though your Medium post was 20 minutes, and I would assume that yeah, that's probably on the longer side. It did really well. It did incredibly well.
Elle: Yes, the medium post I published it on April 8 of 2014. And within a couple of weeks, like maybe two or three it was tweeted to over 5 million people and read by over a quarter-million readers.
Tracy: That is absolutely stunning.
Elle: It was. But my phone just like melted on the spot it was I've never seen anything like it. And Tracy, I mean, you guys, you guys share things online all the time. And I share things online all the time every day, you know, Instagram and Twitter. And I think it's important that we all just keep sharing this stuff because you never know when something is really, really gonna resonate with folks.
Tracy: Yeah, you absolutely struck a nerve and I don't know, I mean, would you be okay if I told the story about how I was looking through my own Facebook feed and I subscribed to Elizabeth Gilbert's feed who wrote Eat, Pray Love. And she all of a sudden I recognized your logo of the sign that says, should and must. And she was sharing it with her readership about how wonderful she thought the article was. I'm like, I know that person. Oh, my God, that's our that's my friend.
Elle: I think it was like Christmas Eve, or maybe right before Christmas Eve, and this notification popped up on my phone from you that said, Hey, Elle, did you see that Elizabeth Gilbert just shared your post, and I think what's so fascinating to me, and it all fits together, now that I see it, you know, kind of looking backwards. The book is about well, it's called The Crossroads Of Should And Must. And it's essentially about how we make decisions in our life should being how other people want us to show up in the world. It's all of the expectations that other people layer upon us. And when we live our lives in should, it can be really comfortable. And it can be easy. And there are a lot of rewards. Yeah. And sometimes shut is very pleasant. But when we choose, should we live our life for someone or something other than really who we are? And must? Is this something else must is, who we are and what we believe, and what we know to be true in our gut? It is this. You know, I recently heard somebody say that, like, you know, when you're in love, you know, when you're in love, you know, when you're when you know, you know, that's what they said. And that's what musk says when you know, you know, it's this sort of it like right in your belly. It's like this inexplicable, undeniable feeling that you have to do something. Yeah. And the reason it made so much sense that she shared it on her feed is that so much about her work is about self-awareness and how we think about our lives and our choices. And she's just doing such a phenomenal job sharing that self-awareness with such a large group that she was the perfect person to share it. And it was just it was such a special moment for me because I've learned so much from her writing, it really brought it full circle.
Tracy: Yeah, I don't know if you've seen her TED talk on creativity and sort of having to write that book right after he prayed love and knowing that there was probably no way she was going to be able to live up to her success and that people were expecting her to fail. And what that felt like just having the vulnerability to share that with so many people is really important. As a creative person. It's so important to hear someone else share that with you.
Elle: She really, really gets it. She really gets it.
Tracy: Yeah. Well, when you're talking about this shouldn't mess, I was like, yeah, so you applying to nine law schools. That's the Should. And then could you share I love the story about how you found your way to your art studio?
Elle: Yes, yes. So that's actually the way that I opened the book. The story that you're referring to is, for a long, while, a long stretch of time, a couple of months, I began to have a recurring dream. And in this dream, I would walk into a room that had concrete floors, glowing white walls that were so tall warehouse windows that ran the length of the space, and a mattress on the floor. And in my dream, I would walk into this space, and it just was so warm and so comforting. And it just filled me with a deep, deep innermost peace. And that was that. And I had this dream over and over again. And one day my friend Susie said to me, hey, out. Have you ever thought about looking for your dream in real life? And I don't even know what to do with a question like that. Like, take a dream and I didn't even know but I thought okay, well when you decide to look for your dreams in real life, where do you go? Craigslist. Craigslist is where I went and I just started looking for the room day after day. I didn't really tell anybody about it because it felt ridiculous. It felt totally ridiculous. And eventually one day this tiny little thumbnail came up on the screen and Tracy like I almost expected for it to be there. I mean, I guess that's why I continued to serve. Yeah, I just, I felt like just as I was looking for it, it was looking for me. And we were reunited. And that day, there was an open house, the next afternoon, I went, I got the apartment, and I moved in two days later. And really the most powerful moment was that I still just didn't understand why I was having this dream, or what it was all about. And my very first night there, as I walked in, literally, what an out of body experience, right? Like I'm standing in a room that I have been dreaming about. And now it's in real life is very weird, right? And, and I, I began to panic. I didn't I did not see that one coming. And as I started to panic, I just began asking these questions that were racing through my head, like, what is this all about? What am I what why am I What am I doing here? And I just stood up, and I just asked the room. And I said, Why am I here. And as clear as day, the room said back to me, it's time to paint. And I hadn't painted for a very long time. The next day, I went and got all the paints. And I came back, and I just started painting with an energy that I had never felt before in my life. Now went on for months.
Tracy: Yeah. I mean, you're now the white room is sort of splattered in all these gorgeous colors, reflective of your, your process.
Elle: The White Room is now very much less white.
Tracy: Well, what I'm hearing from you is that you really work off of intuition. I mean, how do you? How do you get to the place where you can trust or that where you feel confident listening to that? Because I feel like that's really difficult for people to overcome.
Elle Oh, that is such a great question. And, you know, this is, this is the part that really stumps people. And the reason that Crossroads has should and must, is because when I first thought about must, it seems really fun and very romantic, and like something that I would very much like to do, and I'd like to do it immediately. But the question is if the must is so great, why don't we all choose it every day all the time? Well, the reason that we can't get our energy going towards must is because should is this energy that takes us in the opposite direction. It's almost like you're being pulled in two opposite ways. And while you can explore should and must, somewhat concurrently, the most successful people who I've seen be able to make the shift from should to must spend time getting to know their shoulds, they spent time actually digging into the thoughts or belief systems or ideas that maybe they inherited as early as childhood, and continue to live with day in and day out in terms of relationships, job choices, friendships, everything, they carry these belief systems around with them. And they might find themselves in their 50s in their 20s in their 80s still holding on to belief systems that they've never consciously examined. That is so, so true.
Tracy: I did that I just had a similar experience recently, and, I can't believe how much we do carry with us from the past, unexamined.
Elle: And it just, it's, it's a slippery thing because it almost slides into our life like camouflage. It's like a blinder. It limits our vision. But we don't actually see the blinds, we just see the limited vision somebody said to me the other day, it's like, it's like living in a basement and keeping ourselves trapped in a basement when actually we're living inside of an enormous, epic, beautiful castle. And the more we can get to know should, it's like, we open the door to that basement, and then we step out and we realized that actually, the whole downstairs is kind of dark, maybe let's find a stairwell up. And then we go up the stairs. And then Wow, I never knew that there was this thing called light. I never knew that there was this thing called color I never knew, right? It just continues to expand. But we can sit in the basement all day long and dream about color and dream about these other things. But until we really go there and realize that we are in the basement, we are in the situation. It will be difficult for us to ever work our way out of it. Totally.
Tracy: Totally. I love that. I love the idea that I'm in this beautiful castle and is waiting to explore.
Elle: Yes, and I mean, somebody said asked a question the other day that was so great. He said, he said, Do we ever, like does must kind of come and go throughout our lives? And you know is are we closer to must and then it's further away? And the question was so great because must is like this thing that never leaves us, it's with us always, I believe that must is the life force that brought us here, it's with us until our last breath, and it continues long after we go. And should is really the thing that gets in the way should is the thing that disrupts the grand plan. And should is the thing that we want to, it's almost like keep our alarms and our alerts up. And we want to say, oh, wow, look, I'm falling into this pattern, again, that I've had for a long time, I'm going to actually choose to start being self-aware about this. And all we have to do is be self-aware, and then it begins to release its grip on our life.
Tracy: What, when was the last time I mean, you've had so much success sort of going from, you know, design work, to working with startups to being an artist and having this book launch. And I know that it's not that easy. You know, it sounds really glamorous. But I know that you're working really hard to make each of these things happen. And so I'm just conscious of the fact that some people will be listening to this and feel like it's not as approachable for them. So what would you say would be a good first or second step for somebody who wants to start living more in the must category?
Elle: That's a great question. Three thoughts immediately come to mind. One, find a very dear, close, confident that you can begin talking about these things with somebody who is like that partner that I was talking about earlier, who you can begin just exploring these topics. It's really, really good to have a mirror and relationships provide that mirror for us. To begin, there's this activity in the book that I call, getting to know what you want. I have note cards that I keep around like three by five note cards, begin capturing the little things that pop up throughout your day that catch you. For example, yesterday, I was in an uber in New York going to the airport, and the driver began to sing the most beautiful operas, just sing. And it was like in that moment, my hand just fell to the cushion, and the phone went off. And I just went into another world listening to this man sing Opera. It was so beautiful. And so I grabbed my notecard and I wrote the opera question mark. I don't know if it was that man, and just the beauty of him freely expressing himself. Or if it was something about opera or something about singing or voice, I don't know. But it's a clue. As you go throughout your day, look for clues. It's like a little treasure hunt. Maybe it's that you want to drive a fast car. Or maybe it's that you just want to go and blow up balloons. Or maybe you just want to play maybe things are just too serious. Maybe you need some solitude, beginning begin listening to your intuition that voice inside of your head that wants things and the more you listen to it, the louder it will start to speak. And that's a muscle that you can begin to listen to. And that's the muscle of must. That's the voice that's going to point you in the direction towards more of your passion, and less of the shoulds. And the third thing that I would say is play. And we talk about this all the time when it comes to innovation when it comes to design. And I think that entrepreneurs and creatives people who are constantly told break all the rules in terms of business or creative practice. The play comes maybe is a bit more integrated into the everyday routine. If there's not a lot of play in your life, grab a box and start filling it with playful things. Maybe it's costumes or hats. Maybe it's silly straws or crazy lights or tutus that blink. Maybe it's paint, I don't know, anything that kind of just seems silly and fun. And when you get to a spot where you just feel stuck in the mud, grab that box and play because that's when creativity begins to unlock and new ideas begin to come forward. It's the same thing with creativity. It has to have a place that it can find new combinations and new forms.
Tracy: Those are completely practical. And I love that. Like, have things around you that inspire you. Have things around you that give you the permission that maybe you're not giving yourself. And one of the things that Chris and I talked about in our first podcast was this idea of creativity and sort of how people feel as though you are creative, or you aren't creative. And our point of view, and I'm sure you're similar is that everybody has the opportunity to be creative because all creativity means is to create something. And you can approach it from a logical OR analytical point of view. Or you can approach it from, you know, the more traditional model, what do you say to people who think, well, I'm just not, I'm not creative? That's great for you. You're an artist, you're a designer. But I'm a banker, or I'm a chef or something? What do you say to them?
Elle: Wow, well, I think this is where the trusted confidant comes in that friend. For example, just three days ago, my trusted confidant, wrote me an email, and it said the following. Dear Elle, I would love to know, if you would like to express what your vision for the world is. Love, me.
Tracy: That was it? Did you have an answer?
Elle: If an email like that doesn't get you creatively thinking, I don't know, what else will it. It really daunted me at first, and it took me a couple of days. But when you have a trusted friend who you can play and have permission to, you know, sometimes we like to say, like, Can I have a do-over on that email. And it's sort of like, you know, in our kids, and you know, you, you get to like, do it again, yeah, um, I'm sure I'll be right that email multiple times throughout my life. And with her, I always have permission to have a redo. So I felt very comfortable writing it, and I wrote some really big, crazy, scary things in that email. And the amazing thing about that is just going through the exercise of thinking about what the big goal is. But the one word I would like to highlight is the word dream. What is your you know, dream, or your vision of the world? And to dream is a wonderful thing to do when you're in a visioning phase of your work. But a very different word is needed to actually create it, which is to work, to sit down every day and put in the work. And the one thing I tell people, is, if they have an idea of their must, maybe it's to build colonies. On Mars, maybe it's to be a world-class accountant. Maybe it's to teach meditation to young kids volunteer, write a book, anything, whatever that vision is, if you want to pursue your must find 10 minutes. And you know how we were talking about this culture of busy-ness. The reason we don't make time for a must in our life is because we're too busy. And if you want to find must find 10 minutes a day, block it off in your calendar, and hold yourself accountable for showing up and sitting down and actually doing the work. And maybe the work just means breathing. Maybe the work just means listening to whatever songs come to mind. The one piece of advice I would have about that 10 minutes is don't plan it until the 10 minutes begins. Yeah, sit down on that park bench or at that library desk and say, okay, must What do you want today? And do whatever it asks for 10 minutes.
Tracy: I love that. I love that. And that's what you did with your workroom in the white room. And you showed up and you asked yourself, what the hell am I doing here? Yes. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Elle. This has been brilliant talking to you. And I'm so excited for your book to come out and all the success that I know it'll bring you.
Elle: Thank you, Tracy. This has been a pleasure.