Full transcription:
Tracy: In this episode, we introduce you to Barbara Knickerbocker Beskind. Barbara has been designing her life for almost a century, with a stint in global design firm IDEO, starting when she was just 93. After seeing founder David Kelly featured on an episode of 60 minutes, Barbara wrote to the company offering to help design for aging and low vision populations. hailing from the field of occupational therapy after training through the US Army's war emergency course and serving for 20 years before retiring as a major in 1966. Barbara's own experience with macular degeneration led her to design glasses to help her and others with the condition. In this episode, Barbara shares her fascinating story of personal reinvention, and how rather than allowing her illnesses and advanced age to hold her back, she simply used them as new constraints to redesign her life around.
Barbara: My name is Barbara Knickerbocker Beskind. I am an employee at IDEO and have been here for three years, almost three years. I'm in my early 90s. I was my facial therapist for 44 years and source 20 of those 44 were in the military service. I was an army occupational therapist for 20 years. I retired from the military in 1966 as a major. I finished my career after 44 years and started school to learn to be a writer. I really enjoyed abstract art and the history of abstract art in the Russian avant-garde.
Tracy: Were you an artist yourself as well?
Barbara: As a therapist, you always are expected to be able to render suitable designs and we're always developing the piece of equipment. That's how I really started my background in design and developing in equipment for physically handicapped people from war injuries after World War Two, Korea, and Vietnam.
Tracy: What was the design industry like then what what are their processes that you followed? Like now we talked about design thinking and the design thinking process, but what was it like back then?
Barbara: You fly by the seat of your pants, there was no plan. You just developed it according to need. You watched how it worked or didn't work and then went back and start over again. Simple designs, they were not complex, but they met the need to make it possible for people with orthopedic injuries or neurological injuries to be as independent as possible in their living, daily living tests.
Tracy: I was gonna ask what were some of the things that you worked on? What were some of the designs that you created?
Barbara: I worked a lot with the polio patients and there were very widespread epidemics. I was at Walter Reed Army Hospital following my six months at Georgia Warm Springs Foundation for Polio Rehabilitation, which was a wonderful experience. And after six months of graduate training there, then I was stationed at Walter Reed for three and a half years and worked with many, many polio patients. The most important thing that we used to do was we used to have overhead arms sliding so they could lift their arms if they lost the muscles to do so. And also we used to make some splints to hold the thumb and it was a plastic molded split to hold the thumb and position so that you could hold a pencil that was important for young children. We had many, many children who had polio. And then we also did, we had to learn to fit braces, hand braces so that the brace makers could then make them out of aluminum. And they were wrist and hand braces so that the fingers could be elevated because they lost the power to do so.
Tracy: So it sounds like you've had a long and varied career, could you tell us how you came to be a designer?
Barbara: Well, that's already the story. First of all, in January of 2013, after I had moved here from New Hampshire to Peninsula, to be closer to my family who lived in another Peninsula, I saw David Kelley on 60 minutes. At that time, I couldn't contact IDEO because I was recovering from breast cancer surgeries and radiation so I had to get my strength back. And then in order for me to come to work, I had to come by public transportation, I did not want to ask my daughter in law to bring me to work, I would never apply for a job if that was the case. So I had to learn, I had to go through a vision. Since I have I have low vision. And at this point, I'm legally blind in both eyes. At that time, I was only blind in one eye. But I did visit visual rehabilitation so that I could walk safely to cross streets along the sidewalks, get on city buses, get on the train, and maneuver. I came by train this morning to work as I do, every time when I come to work and go both ways. By train, I walked to the office about three and a half blocks. That time in June of 2013, I finally had finished polishing my letter, and I sent it by snail mail, which probably got their attention because they don't get many applications to work by snail mail. And my letter said the background of my experience. And I said that I felt that I had skills that could contribute to their company. And I most of all wanted to be among people who had an energy of creativity and problem solving, that I could interact with and provide a perspective from my point of view.
Tracy: So what inspired you to decide to take another job at this point in your life?
Barbara: Well, I live in a retirement community and there are many lovely people there. But I wanted to find people who could, who were still very active in the business and engineering communities that were creative. And yeah, I can engage in thinking I could hear their ideas. And what's great about IDEO is that I'm working with people who might be six decades younger than I am. And that's all the more exciting because that's where I get my energy. And most of all, they come from countries all over the world. They bring their perspective, which is very enriching. And it's been a wonderful, wonderful experience, I wouldn't have missed anything. This is one of the best adventures of my life.
Tracy: So I mean, when we met, we were working on a magazine together called Designs on Aging. And every, maybe once a year or so idea puts out this magazine, and they have a different theme. And I was really struck by your story because I felt like you took a big risk really in reaching out and I wonder since we met that was probably two years ago.
Barbara: It would have been December or January 2014.
Tracy: Yeah, so just about two years ago. And I wonder how, how has your life changed since then? What's happened since we last met for you here?
Barbara: Well, after the magazine you mentioned went online. At that time, they were offering a contest worldwide of all the employees to develop and design things for the aging. And since I was too late getting in to enter any idea myself, they came to me and said, would you be one of the 12 or 13 judges, which I agreed to do. And then the article you were interviewing me for unbeknown to me, I was being honored because they were dedicating the magazine to me. So when that went online about February or March of 2014, then Tim from the Wall Street Journal noticed it and asked for an interview and that interview was printed on May 6 2014. After that, it kind of just ballooned from there. It was interviewed by NPR on growing older, that was in September 2014. When that was picked up, then I was invited to be interviewed by NPR for all things considered in January of 2015. And after that, everything mushroomed. My next engagement was the Today’s Show in February. That was on my first day, actually, they filmed that and after that, it's just been like a snowball.
Tracy: It seems like you've inspired a lot of people to think about how to design aging, really, and how to design for the actual people who are going to be using the products and services that are out there.
Barbara: Yes, I think too many times people designed for us and not with us. And this is my model designed for not what it is I wish for us. That was one of the quotes that were actually picked up in the White House Conference on Aging, and quoted by the next panel that spoke at the White House has been picked up. In other media, I think this is the important thing that people who are aging have experienced from the perspective that they can lend to a product and to the design of products so that they really are functional. And if you if a product makes life easier for an older adult, then they will use it. If it is only an accessory, you'll find it gathering dust.
Tracy: Yeah, I was recently speaking with somebody who had accessibility issues. And he was also talking about a similar thing, which is that most people think that they should design for, and they're not inviting the people into the conversation that they're actually designing for and they're not inviting them in even here, right like at IDEO, we would go out and we'd have interviews with people and kind of understand their wants and needs, but rarely or more rare than would be desired. We don't invite the people in to do co-design with us or to have people on staff who have the needs and the wants that we are designing for.
Barbara: But I think the perception is that once you're over 75, you no longer think and so how would you have anything to contribute? I personally find that by my loss of vision. It's an inconvenient truth. I wouldn't have chosen to lose my vision. But I think it enhances my ability to understand what elderly people who have serious vision problems as I do, what their needs are, and how they have to cope.
Tracy: What are some of the things that you do to cope?
Barbara: Well, for instance, I used the ski poles. There are adapters so that I have a hand grip that's very comfortable that I made myself. I've had to use rocker bottoms on the bottom of the ski poles so that I can get a push-off. So walking is much easier than just walking without any and I wouldn't use a cane. I don't need that. And I don't certainly don't need a walker, I like to use it because the handles are vertical and they keep my posture upright and in good positions. And also I can use an alternating arm like a gate. And that's terribly important for maintaining good muscular strength, especially in the lateral hip muscles. And as you lose more vision, you have to depend more and more on your proprioception, that is the skin, the muscle, and the joint information that comes from weight bearing joints. So I adapt by using my walker but I do not want to use a walker because if you lean on, your posture becomes very very impaired. But what I started to say is, we have two steps in front of our building in one entrance. And when I go up those steps, I put my ski poles in my left hand, grab the railing with the right hand, as I get to the top of these steps, I do not use my ski poles immediately. I make a right-hand turn before I grab both before I use both ski poles because if by chance I ever lose my balance, it's at least not as serious if I just lost my balance on a flat surface versus losing my balance down two steps.
Tracy: Absolutely and I know that you mentioned a little bit about the walker. And obviously, that's ubiquitous. For folks who are losing their mobility. Could you talk a little bit about why that is not a great design?
Barbara: Well, because it has a horizontal handle. And for people who have orthopedic problems, such as I did when I fell backwards off of a curb in New Hampshire, because my winter boots slid off at the sloping curved edge. I broke my pelvis in two places. And for eight hours for three months, I had to be on partial weight-bearing 25% weight. Well, that's the only kind of a walker you can use. And it was absolutely imperative that I use it. On the other hand, for people who are elderly people, for example, in my retirement community, when somebody new comes in, their family looks around, they say, Oh, mom, maybe you should have a walker, I don't want you to lose your balance. Well, that's one of the worst things they may be saying. That's not true. In every case. Some people absolutely need walkers for arthritic reasons and for other reasons. But in many cases, they start using a walker with the horizontal handles and they start leaning, and then they get a forward pitch to their head, their shoulders. And this impairs their balance even further. Whereas if they had vertical handles, so that they were fours, so it enabled them to maintain a vertical position, it would be much easier for them to maintain what I call ears over hips and hips over heels.
Tracy: Why do you think it is that walkers are so prevalent still today? if they actually make it more difficult for people to age? Well? Why hasn't your Schiphol innovation sort of been designed even earlier?
Barbara: I don't really have an answer to that. I think it's the culture, we have been brought up in a culture that focuses on the medical model of aging. Whereas currently, it's changing to be a much better health model of aging. So that we have preventive practice, we had I think that home focus will be more inclined to use something like ski poles or and walking sticks are all right, but sometimes they aren't high enough. You need the elbow level. I have an article coming out on the 29th of December, on Next Avenue. I was among the 70 people selected who were most influential on aging in this country. And then we were asked if you could do one thing to change, aging, what would it be? And then they came back and we answered in 144 words. And that essay focuses on posture and maintaining good posture and starting good posture and brisk walking from childhood on. And that's how I would hope that we would have a better posture going into the aging years.
Tracy: So you're saying that right now I'm just sitting up, munching over to talk to you.
Barbara: So that whole essay will be online on Next Avenue. And I've been told it was scheduled to go online on the 29th of December this year.
Tracy: Okay, so it'll be out probably before this episode airs. Wonderful. So you were talking a little bit about the change in mentality between the medical mindset of aging and sort of a healthy mindset. What do you think is at the heart of that shift, what's opened up?
Barbara: I think the one very clear driving force is the fact that the baby boomers are aging. I think that statistics I heard at the White House Conference on Aging, and I didn't know the statistic, was 10,000 people a day reached the age of 65. Well, and these are healthy, active people who have been active in sports, many for many cases, in many instances, and they want to continue a healthy active life. And I think that's a driving force that is very, very important and excellent. And we in the design field should should meet those changing needs.
Tracy: Yeah, the entry that came up in the designs on aging contests that you were mentioning, I thought were there, they seemed pretty inspiring. And that was the first time that I'd really spent any time doing research or looking to understand the space of aging, although I'd done work in health and wellness. And I wondered, do you remember any from that, that really piqued your curiosity or that you thought were great ideas?
Barbara: Oh, there was one that was made and this is her saying he designed a walker that had a roller like a skateboard. And that had features that I I liked. And I think it will be relevant to the early aging or the people who are over 55 should they need a walker. On the other hand, I thought there were some risks to it. That was one of them. Also, there was one from Germany, it was a car that was very well designed, so that you entered from the back, as it was backed up to the curb, a wheelchair could be rolled into it and then turned around so that you drove away. I like to decide that very much. That's one of the big ones. I remember another one. To think about, it was a way that each person could put something about their life each year in a capsule and put a piece of rolled-up paper with their information on it. And it became a chronological history of their lives, for their grandchildren to have.
Tracy: Nice. I also wondered what things are out in the world today that you think are doing a great job of supporting design in aging?
Barbara: Well, I think that Gretchen is certainly focusing on a new platform for aging products, I think that will be worldwide. And I think that as that comes into fruition and takes off I think that'll be very important. They will entertain ideas. I think aging 2.0 involves people who are entrepreneurs and engaging in helping them meet people who are potential investors. I've seen some very good designs there. I work with aging 2.0. I've worked with them at three different conferences.
Tracy: Do you want to talk a little bit about the work Gretchen's doing? I'm not as familiar with it.
Barbara: I'm not as familiar with it either. But I know that it's a new platform. It was introduced first in New York City, right after we were in Washington. And that was July 13. So the following week after that. It was introduced in Washington. It was introduced here in San Francisco, I believe in October. And its match at IDEO is partnering with a firm from Japan that we've worked with for a long time. I can't tell you the name of it and they are. I think they may be opening in Tokyo. You'll have to ask her about the details. But it has this wonderful promise because they no longer look at aging in terms of years. It's designed across the spectrum. So that good design is applicable regardless of age.
Tracy: Absolutely. And I think I wonder about, you know, for people who are starting to get up in years and they're worried about what life is going to be like, especially after retirement or big milestones like that. What sort of advice would you give them as they enter this next phase?
Barbara: I think the most important thing that has been supportive to my aging process has been the fact that from the time I retired, I retired five times.
Tracy: You're like Michael Jordan.
Barbara: Right. From the time I turned in my certificate, my registration, and occupational therapy after 44 years, during that time I always engaged in long lifelong learning. I was living near Dartmouth at that time in Vermont, and Dartmouth had a wonderful program called Elliot, when I moved to New London, New Hampshire, there were adventures and learning with Colby Sawyer. So, I counted up one time I think I am. I can't tell how many years but from Nigeria, I returned 89. From that time on, I think I had taken 50 courses. And to me, the most important thing is to learn new things, engage with people while thinking, share your own expertise, either by teaching or participating in classes, reading new information, new books, new things that are introduced, that I would have no idea.
Tracy: And how do you? How do you find the things that you're going to take classes in? Like, what are your interests?
Barbara: Well, I'm very interested in history. I'm very interested in science. You know, between that it was always a, it's there were 35 courses offered, there might be three that were very difficult to choose from if they were doing around, we're on the same day. At the same time, or offered at the same time of the day. That was my biggest problem.
Tracy: What are some mistakes that you see people making as they age? And would you have any advice for them on what to do differently?
Barbara: I think the people I feel most sympathy for, and I use the word sympathy and empathy and sympathy are the people who as wonderful housewives and mothers, scout leaders, church, group leaders, have done so much for children all their lives, and for their church and community. But who has not had an outside career in a professional career or business career, or worked outside the home, where there was a discipline that is not true in your own home on your own when you're your own boss. That doesn't mean you don't have demands on you, you have many demands. But I find the people who have not had an outside living experience. And mine was certainly rich by being in the army and being overseas. So I've had such enrichment just the experience by profession brought me to that I feel that people who have not had it don't have to have that much experience, but just have an outside exposure to people's thinking disciplines. expectations, structure time. deadlines, they've got deadlines at home. There's no question about that. But just a different experience. And I think those people come into the aging process with less to draw. And it's more likely that they will focus on their past experiences which are fine on their grandchildren's exposure experiences and accomplishments, which is fine. or sports. And I think that's one of the things that really invigorates many people in the aging community.
Tracy: Sports? Oh, that's surprising.
Barbara: Watching, not participating.
Tracy: Yeah, but even still.
Barbara: Yeah, they have their favorite games and people never miss a Giants' game or just sports, I can't name any team other than Oakland. Isn't that terrible?
Tracy: I'm not that into sports, either. It's fine.
Barbara: That's where my limit comes.
Tracy: So I mean, that's interesting. It does. It makes a lot of sense. I wonder for somebody who has had that as their experience. What are some things that they should be looking to do to gain a little bit more exposure?
Barbara: Well, and the place where I live, they have wonderful lectures, and people do various debates and those, they have art classes, and they have lots going on. We have trips. And when I first moved here to California, having never been to California, except a week at a time as a tourist, the trips were wonderfully important to me to learn geography in the area. So I think if the more they engage in the things that are offered, the better it is. We have movies once or twice a day, they movies every night, sometimes in the afternoon. Some of them, some of those are very good. But very often people kind of life in the past, past old movies, old songs, or performers, which is fine. But it's not as engaging for somebody like me. And it's hard to, to participate in that kind of focus and interest.
Tracy: So the transition to living in a community with other elderly people seems to be difficult for people, some people, not everybody. And so I wonder if you could talk just a little bit about your own community and what you think works well, and what you wish to change?
Barbara: The most important thing is to be a participant in the decision making or make the decision on your own. And the people who take the longest to adjust, in my experience are those who have had it picked out for them. And I don't mean necessarily foisted on them, but circumstances to set the agenda. If you wait until an emergency dictates that you do have to move. That's much more difficult. In my case, yes, I had an accident when I was at 87. It was when I fell in and broke my pelvis. And after that, I decided that I should look in Arizona where my younger stepson was living when I looked there at possible places I would be comfortable if an emergency came up. That was the way I started. Because I didn't want them to have to pick out a place for me, and I might not be happy about it. But I came here to California and I looked at six places, I found two that were most acceptable. I came back and spent a month living here so that I could measure every wall. And coming from New Hampshire, you don't want to bring anything heavy across the country that you aren't going to be able to use when you get here. So I made sure every wall I knew exactly what pieces of furniture would fit and what I could bring, and it was the easiest transition I could possibly make. But everybody has the trauma of downsizing, leaving their homes and sometimes 50 and 60 years, for many of these people. Having been in the army I've moved around so many times I can move it on a dime. So I think that the more often the elder person has a voice in the decision making. But if they can make it on their own, if they can make the decision on their own, they'll be much happier. And too at times, people wait too late until circumstances require it. Loss of a spouse, loss of hearing or sight loss of ambulation that requires that they have to move into a facility that gives services.
Tracy: I'm interested to know what advice you have for young designers, people just sort of coming on the scene with all of your wisdom and experience in the industry.
Barbara: I would say that if it would be possible and I know there are some facilities that allow this. I would say that if you could get a residence for a month to come and live and go through all this structure and they see all the good things that can be done. See what helped you be available if you need help. See the problems of the people who are failing. Talk to people, engage them and if you ask them, well, if you could design something, what would it be to help them? That's not the way to go about it. Because they'll say, I've done this. And I wondered why it didn't work. And Gretchen laughed, and she said, you didn't ask the question the right way. Well, I've never gotten around asking her. What should I have asked? But when I ask people, what would you like, if you could have something designed for you? Oh, I don't think. So they're not geared to thinking you don't ask them that way.
Tracy: Well, they're also not designers. So I mean, that's not their, their crappy. Yes. So um, I think it's interesting, the idea that, were you suggesting somebody who should go live in like a nursing home is indeed, absolutely, that would be amazing.
Barbara: I know that. There's one very large company that allows for residences, residency, so they call it like an internship. Yeah. And this particular person is designing some very important features. I can't remember exactly what it was. But I know that she was. I think there were applications that were selected, she was selected for this particular opening. And I think they may have had multiple applications somewhere in the Carolinas where she could go and spend a month as I did when I came out here for the month and really live the life of an elder person, or a group of elderly people. I think that's one of them. That's the richest experience you can possibly have.
Tracy: I would agree. That's an extreme empathy building. I mean, we go and talk to people for an hour or two at a time when we do our design work, but to get a chance to really live with the population you're designing for, to be incredible.
Barbara: Well, I'll tell you, having lived in a nursing home for three months. In rehabilitation, I can tell you, it's no fun, right? And I would stay out of a nursing home if I could. That doesn't mean that it isn't important for people who can't. But it gave me so much understanding of people who were a lot more elderly than I are more incapacitated than I, I at least knew that I was going to get out of there. But to go through night after night, once a day, what's it like to live there the night was no fun, it's noisy. They put people to bed at six o'clock, they give him a sleeping pill. They feed him at 430 give them a sleeping pill at six and then wonder why they can't sleep. Wow. And it's noisy that the cars are going up and down and people are yelling in the hall sometimes. And it's not a joyride. And if I had to be there for the rest of my life when I was exposed to it, then it would have been a very depressing experience. So I think that has given me a lot of empathy.
Tracy: Yes, it also points out a huge opportunity to redesign that experience.
Barbara: Yeah, no one asked me, they would want my opinion.
Tracy: I think your opinion would be incredibly valuable. I think I love that, you know, you're helping to lead the charge. Gretchen is as well as some other folks at IDEO and design firms around the world, looking at this problem, the challenges involved in aging seriously.
Barbara: I mean, their aging populations are so much larger than ours. And they have fewer people to help them.
Tracy: Right. And they also look at older people differently. They do they have more respect, and
Barbara: It was very much home. And now was when I was in China with a one-child population. If you lose a child, you're really in trouble. And even that child may have gone elsewhere to work. Well, it's not the same demographics and social structure that they are used to.
Tracy: Yeah, things have changed. Well, I wanted to be respectful of your time. It's been about 40 minutes. So thank you so much for taking the time to share your insights with us today. You're as lovely and as engaging as I remember from before and I'm so glad to see you thriving.
Barbara: Well. Let me tell you one thing, Tracy. Every time I have an occasion to discuss things, I think of something new and from a different perspective, and that's very enriching to me.
Tracy: Same for me. Thank you.